Something that was brushed over on my 105/55 thread.

[Elistan Theocrat]

Originally Posted by Koroh

The players who bring Drok armour to the level limited arenas are the same people who play most games on "Easy" instead of Normal. Many posters have commented that the rush from a hard fought battle is better than the rush from a lop-sided one, but in Drok armour these players never have to taste defeat. It's +1/-0 versus +5/-5. To them, the small victory just reinforces the idea that they're a great player, no matter the reason for their victory.

Every single-player game on the market puts us in the role of a protagonist who is better than every enemy in the game. Some shooters have bosses that require multiple lives to kill, but even then we only have to beat the boss once to be considered the victor.

With this in mind, is it any surprise that these players see nothing wrong with having an unfair advantage over their opponents? You do every time you go PvE so it's not that far a stretch.

While I don't agree with the practice, I completely understand where they're coming from. Personally I hate losing, even in a close match. I've had to keep my ego in check in PvP because I've been absolutely destroyed several times. On the plus side, now that I know about Drok armour I can just write these losses off to some d00d with uber stuff. It's probably not true, but it's a great excuse!

Koroh

Well stated, and I suppose you're right. Still,l I really would love to see the numbers on people who were turned of to PVP in this game, which I enjoy immensely when its a fair fight, due to the crap that goes on in the introductory pvp areas.

[coleslawdressin]

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Well stated, and I suppose you're right.

thank you

[bobrath]

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Well stated, and I suppose you're right. Still,l I really would love to see the numbers on people who were turned of to PVP in this game, which I enjoy immensely when its a fair fight, due to the crap that goes on in the introductory pvp areas.

I don't know that numbers would ever be available. Its just not something that would be easily countable. I do know from personal experience that my initial PvP experience when the game first came out was *very* different then my experience this past weekend. Keep in mind I was not involved in any of the betas so I was very "new" to the world.

Initial experience in Ascalon arena was a rollercoaster of random battles with varying skills and builds. Some wins were pulled from the teeth of disaster and I left the arena each night glad I had spent time there (instead of exploring the new world).

Just this past weekend I decided to start up a new character and the searing crossover fight reminded me of the fun I had previously in the lower arenas. What the heck, I'll try it again.... The numbers of participants has dropped dramatically and the skills in play for the most part have become vanilla. Everyone there is running the same basic builds. The few new players get beat on right away and dont' return. I was playing with only those skills available from searing and sardelac quests (but with the best armor available in Ascalon) combined with my PvP experience in the upper arenas. It was very obvious when I was playing against upper level skills and armor and when I was going up against players equipped with the appropriate level eq and skills. Any guess on which ones had more taunting? Any guesses on which ones I enjoyed more?

Yes, its part of human nature to want to win and some take that want to a higher level and take advantage of loopholes to get more wins. Its unfortunate that those same folks can make the experience so much less interesting and fun for the newer folks that don't know better. I can only hope that a majority of those turned off folks decide to try lvl 20 PvP with their fulled unlocked characters and see the great depth and diversity involved. However I think more will turn to seeing GW as a PvE game and miss out.

[SOT]

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I mentioned this in my rant, and responses to it were pretty much buried in the monkroaches rabid defense of thier cashcow, so I thought it deserved another go.

The previous thread was locked because it was a pointless flamewar, started with its OP. Reviving it on the sly and claiming innocence is the same thing as before. It is not a BANNABLE offense, but it's not a good one either. It is known as trolling, and it is very apparent.

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I've heard every argument made by the people who wear droks armor/ use elite skills in the noob arenas, so I don't want to hear the same garbage here. This includes.

1.) you should get it yourself, youre just mad because you cant.
2.) I worked hard for this.
3.) I play the way I want to play, you cant make me play any other way.
4.) I have to do this to be competitive with the ones who do this or else I wouldnt...

Because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean someone cannot disagree with reasons you put on your "i don't want to hear it" lists. Pathetic.

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

I think all of those are copouts and not valid reasons to bring that crap to the noob arenas, So i'm hoping somebody can give me a valid reason why they feel they need to have an advantage at the noob arenas. Most of the people who are doing this also participate in the high lvl pvp, or at least they all claim to, so that in and of itself should be enough advantage, without bringing things that have no reason to be in those arenas, or somehow ensuring that thier group is a guild-group on ventrilo or TS. As if taking on a bunch of underequiped noobs who are randomly tossed together with a guilded and voicechatted group in with out of place armor/skills is something to be proud of instead of embarrassed by. Lame.

You left out "Because we can"

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Looking at the bigger picture I'm constantly hearing people complain that competition at the high end of pvp is lacking. I'd wager competition there would be more interesting if those same clowns didn't all but exploit to have every possible advantage at the noob arenas, stomping out all hopes for good competition if youre not on your second/third charcacter, or if your first has been spoonfed the game by your guild I suppose. How many people do you think just get frustrated by the lame people in droks/with elites and just write off pvp in general. I mean if the lameness is that thick at the noob lvl of competition, it stands to reason its only going to get lamer (*COUGH* spirit spamming *COUGH*) as the stakes go up.

Not to mention that the same pvp folks are constantly complaining that UAS needs to be instituted (I agree by the way) so that they dont have to "grind" (which i dont belive actually exists in GW) to play on a level playing field, then turn around and do everything in thier power to make sure that the introductions to pvp are as unlevel a playing field as possible. Lame.

This is your other thread, yet again, reworded to keep the madness going. Failure.

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

So I'd really like to hear someone explain to me why this is considered "cool" without A) telling me I'm jealous, because I've got the money and abliity to be this lame. B) telling me they can play how they want, because thats NOT a reason to do so, its an exuse to do so. C) that they worked so hard to have the stuff, and earned the right, which to me just means they went out of thier way to be lame.

An excuse is a reason, it is simply on your "I don't want to hear it" list. Again, pointless and self-serving.

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

The Ever Popular, Elistan Theocrat.

Troll post, nothing more. As said many times on your postings.

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

1) I'm not bashing on the game. I'm asking the community why this kind of behavior is acceptable, If I were given a reason that makes sense as to why we should accept this kind of behavior I would be willing to take it into consideration. Thus, I'm not suggesting that ANET fix the problem, because its not a problem that ANET created, its a problem with the players that are behaving in this fashion, If they were not abusing the fact that you can wear droks into those arenas there would be nothing for anet to fix. By questioning the community on this behavior, my suggestion is that we as a community fix the issue instead of relying on programmers to fix it for us.

It will never MAKE SENSE to you, because you refuse to accept any answer that any rational sane person tries to give you, because it is listed on your

"I Don't Want To Hear It" list, which of course only strengthens your argument in your own demented mind, because you ask a question, then refute all answers, therefore making your discussion MEANINGLESS, and a copy of other threads ONLY in that regard.

Stop wasting bandwidth with stupidity.

[Teklord]

There is a rational sane answer as to why it should be viewed as acceptable to rush to the end game and bring back Elite skills and high level armor the the Ascalon and Shiverpeak Areanas?

Right... <There really does need to be a [ Sarcastic ] tag>

[Elistan Theocrat]

Originally Posted by SOT

The previous thread was locked because it was a pointless flamewar, started with its OP. Reviving it on the sly and claiming innocence is the same thing as before. It is not a BANNABLE offense, but it's not a good one either. It is known as trolling, and it is very apparent.

This has nothing to do with the 105 thread, and I've purposely kept people off of that topic to keep the two threads from being mistaken for such. I pointed one such person to an active thread discussing 105. You argue I'm revivng a thread, I say I've reviving a question I posed on that thread which was buried under the 105 debate. I've backed that statement by taking steps to prevent confusion that this is about 105.


[

Originally Posted by SOT

it will never MAKE SENSE to you, because you refuse to accept any answer that any rational sane person tries to give you, because it is listed on your

"I Don't Want To Hear It" list, which of course only strengthens your argument in your own demented mind, because you ask a question, then refute all answers, therefore making your discussion MEANINGLESS.

Wrong. unless youre trying to say that the only rational sensical reasons for people to wear droks armor and bring elite skills to ascalon are listed in the things that I, out of courtesy, stated up front I should not be expected to accept. Anyone could post those answers and I would reject them as I had stated. Stating so up front saves me having to restate that I reject those answers. Thats not refutinng ALL answers, thats refuting certain answers.

Originally Posted by SOT

Stop wasting bandwidth with stupidity.

Theres plenty of bandwith, and well stupidity is your opinion, and maybe your're not the only one. But tell me that you believe that there arent players who have written off pvp in guildwars due to the crap that goes on in the noob arena nowadays.

[MuKen]

Originally Posted by Elistan Theocrat

Sigh, Really man, you can post another reply to me if you are that insistant on having the last word but this is the last I'll respond to you.

No opinion on the current discussion, but I do think it is super lame to pre-emptively bash someone for trying to get the last word, while adding another response yourself. If you want to stop talking, just stop talking, and don't act smarmy about it.

[Elistan Theocrat]

Originally Posted by MuKen

No opinion on the current discussion, but I do think it is super lame to pre-emptively bash someone for trying to get the last word, while adding another response yourself. If you want to stop talking, just stop talking, and don't act smarmy about it.

Simple, it's my thread, he was taking it off topic. I was making it clear to him that I was not going to allow that to happen. I had previously told him that I had noted his disagreeance, and since he had given no reason for disagreeing other than to insult me, I told him he didnt have to post here again. Of course he did and in no way about the topic, which made it clear he wanted the last word. So, I explained how I did not appreciate him dragging the topic away from the questions I had posed, And how I was not going to respond to him again, well within my rights, and I've held to it as well.

That having been said. I'd ask you to please PM me the next time you have a critique about how I post as opposed to a contribution to the conversation of the thread. Thanks

[Aniewiel]

Keep it on topic...and this one's already borderline for thread resurrection...or it's going to close. Elistan and SOT: Take it to PMs. The rest of us don't want to have our eyes wounded by your callous words to one another.

Back to topic please.

[Mister Herringbone]

I was not around when this rant was made, so I am not aware of the details of it, so I'm sorry if what I am about to say has already been repeated in that thread. Personally, I don't think it's considered "cool" to bring Droknar armor to low level arenas. However, I offer that people who do bring Droknar armor to low level arenas play to win in those arenas. They are attempting to maximize their chances of winning by getting the best armor available to them in the game. And as of this writing, Droknar's Forge is currently availble to low level and unascended characters. Furthermore, if you are not wearing Droknar armor to low level arenas, then you are not playing to win in those arenas. I offer this link as reading material: http://sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm. Lastly, if Droknar armor is not supposed to show up in low level arenas, it is the responsibility of ArenaNet to not allow this to happen. If you think that the way games works is lame, then I have nothing to say about that.

[Elistan Theocrat]

Originally Posted by Mister Herringbone

I was not around when this rant was made, so I am not aware of the details of it, so I'm sorry if what I am about to say has already been repeated in that thread. Personally, I don't think it's considered "cool" to bring Droknar armor to low level arenas. However, I offer that people who do bring Droknar armor to low level arenas play to win in those arenas. They are attempting to maximize their chances of winning by getting the best armor available to them in the game. And as of this writing, Droknar's Forge is currently availble to low level and unascended characters. Furthermore, if you are not wearing Droknar armor to low level arenas, then you are not playing to win in those arenas. I offer this link as reading material: http://sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm. Lastly, if Droknar armor is not supposed to show up in low level arenas, it is the responsibility of ArenaNet to not allow this to happen. If you think that the way games works is lame, then I have nothing to say about that.

I can respect that viewpoint and thanks for a reasonable post. I just see things a little differently. I can understand the thought that Anet has ALL of the responsibility. I'm not sure I agree, that sounds too much like its excusing the lowest common denominator for impinging on newer players enjoyment of the game by going out of thier way to unbalance introductory pvp. You say they are playing to win. I say they are potentially damaging pvp in the greater sense within this game with thier need to win at the noob arena. I've heard alot of pvponly/nearly only players complaining, as they are supposedly leaving, that competition is drying up at the higher lvls of pvp. I'm just trying to forward the idea that maybe the way that people are playing to win in the introductory pvp arenas is discouraging some, not all, but some people from becoming interested in pvp. I guess I'm just overly optimistic to expect more from online game players than total disregard of anything except winning.

[SOT]

"Because we can."

Valid reason. Hated reason already stated to this thread at least 4 times, but no longer can it be said there is no valid reason.

Bing!

[bobrath]

It comes down (imo) to a question of the low level arenas (Yak's and Ascalon). Should they be considered just another arena OR should it be like separating the kindergarten kids from the middle schoolers from the college kids? Obviously since Anet placed level limits on the arenas, there was some desire to separate the levels. So why allow higher level skills and armor into the area?

Everyone can agree (I would hope) that using Drok's armor or an Elite in Ascalon Arena is an exploit. Currently, using either or both is just doing what the game allows you so that you can get the win at all costs. Until the community (or Anet) decides that this is unacceptable, it will continue. Human nature is to take and keep advantage if it is presented. The extension being to go into forums and defend it at all costs to prolong your dominance. Yes there are folks (the "experts" cited in the linked example) that are out there looking for workarounds and counters and I have only admiration for them. However, lets leave a sandbox out there for the new folks to the game so that can get as hooked as we all are.

[Elistan Theocrat]

Originally Posted by SOT

"Because we can."

Valid reason. Hated reason already stated to this thread at least 4 times, but no longer can it be said there is no valid reason.

Bing!

Your opinion. Which you are entitled to. I disagree that thats a valid reason. Its an excuse in my opinion. Which I am entitled to have. Your view leaves the responiblity for determination of whats (for lack of a better term) ethicial or moral behavior within the game to Anet. Mine makes it the players responsibiliy. Simple difference of opinion.

What I'm actually looking for in the manner of a reason, as opposed to an excuse, iIs some justification for impinging on the enjoyment of new players.

[zehly]

I think my PvP skills aren't what they could be, because when I took my characters into the low level arenas at the appropriate time, I was getting owned every single battle. I thought I just sucked (which, incidentally, I do fairly well in the LA randoms), but I realized once that someone had cast some elite on me that killed me in 3 seconds.

I don't think girls like me are the ones who do this. I think it's the guys who feel under-equipped, have no self-esteem, and feel like they might grow something if they can pwn a few noobs.

[cpage01]

I use droks armor because if I didnt need it I would need skill to win. I dont have that. And I like winning.

Your a friggin moron if you actually care about this. Are you missing out on 10 faction every win? I went on a 20 spree, and could have gotten more in 1 or 2 guild battles.

[coleslawdressin]

Originally Posted by coleslawdressin

"The forum has witnessed a rise in complaints. As any game, Guild Wars is not perfect. However, complaining about some of its shortcomings will likely not benefit anyone. If there are things you dislike about the game, I suggest you create a thread in the Sardelac Sanitarium and state ways of improving it and not merely bashing it. Remember, the developers do read these forums and constructive criticism is paid attention to. If it is genuine, polite and logical then I see no reason why it would not be taken into consideration."

- quote from your admin THX here

Stop breaking the rules and I will stop reporting your garbage threads. Not only do you not offer any suggestions, it is not a new subject. Search for one of the other ones and cry there maybe?

mods, why is this junk not gone yet?

[Teklord]

Still waiting for that good 'sane' and 'acceptable' reason to appear, as it hasn't.

"Because I can" is the same as "I was just following orders." And for those that aren't up on their history, the "I was just following orders." doesn't fly in a court of law.

Yeah I'll probably get shot down for bringing a real life example into this, but generally those are the people I just don't care what they think anyway (you know the type... the "My way, no highway option"), so works for me.

Edit: Its not gone because its a discussion! Oh my! And at that, a discussion you don't need to be involved in if you should choose. Make the right choice, before bothering to click on reply.

[SOT]

Originally Posted by Teklord

Still waiting for that good 'sane' and 'acceptable' reason to appear, as it hasn't.

"Because I can" is the same as "I was just following orders." And for those that aren't up on their history, the "I was just following orders." doesn't fly in a court of law.

Yeah I'll probably get shot down for bringing a real life example into this, but generally those are the people I just don't care what they think anyway (you know the type... the "My way, no highway option"), so works for me.

Edit: Its not gone because its a discussion! Oh my! And at that, a discussion you don't need to be involved in if you should choose. Make the right choice, before bothering to click on reply.

Self-dislike. Noted.

------------

If people can do a thing, they will. It is not semantics, it is reality. History 101. Snorting cocaine, drinking until drunk, murder, suicide, rock and roll, it is every action and thought in our society. If people can do it, they do it. But no, that is an opinion, so basically nothing takes place, and this entire world is my opinion, and I am not really typing this post, because I am able to type it, so it does not actually exist, because my ability to type a post, and therefore post it, is my opnion. Which means that this entire thread is....pointless?


Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

[Teklord]

Did that make sense to anyone? Anyone at all?

I think this discussion just dropped to a level below what I'm willing to participate in. Oh well, happens to me a lot.